Whats in the News?
16-11-2015, 07:20 AM
On a lighter note, Ikea opened it brand new store here in Canberra today.

Which is really good because now I have an excuse to start my next FM career in Sweden Mrgreen
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16-11-2015, 08:25 AM
I hate IKEA. More than I dislike religion. Though less than I hate people killing one another.

FWIW guns don't kill people. Imbalanced people and lax laws over gun ownership kill people. Religion doesn't kill people. People taking ideas and philosophies to their extreme and choosing to use those extremes against others kills people.

World's fucked. Simple as that. Each nation/religion feels its actions are right/justified and that others are wrong. Counteraction follows action and the vicious cycle continues. You could argue that a lot of the current unrest goes back to the actions and opinions established by the crusades. And then there's economic factors like oil. Oh, and the lack of education and understanding across cultures.

So much for the much vaunted Age of Aquarius and era of peace that the new millennium was supposed to usher in...
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16-11-2015, 09:15 AM
(16-11-2015, 01:19 AM)SackedLlaMa Wrote:
(16-11-2015, 12:46 AM)ken66 Wrote: My point is that most of the troubles in the world currently, are down to differences in religions - people trying to force their beliefs onto others.  If we had a world without religion, or imaginery friends, as I like to call them (my view), we would have less troubles. That's not to say weshould attempt to ban religion, people are free to believe as they wish, but they are not free to kill others who don't have the same beliefs.

These people were gunned downed because they dared to be free, which goes against the ISIS's 7th Century version of their religion.

We know all to well in Britain how damaging religious views can be - Northern Ireland anyone?

What do you mean when you say 'troubles'? That can be a lot of things. Are you saying religious people have more problems or cause more problems than non-religious people and if so, what are these problems and what are your sources? And what are your proofs on less religion equalling less problems?

It's also very important to make clear that non of the major religions thinks it's ok to kill people, period. Doesn't matter what they believe, killing is forbidden in all the major religions. As that meme I posted say, there are 1.6 billion muslims but only 0.003% uses Islam to justify killing people. As far as I can remember, less than 1% believes that holy war (jihad) means physical war, i.e. killing people.

There's a difference between people killing in the name of religion and people believing in religion. You can't lump them all together for your convenience. The only terrorist attack we've had in Norway since the 2nd World War was not religiously motivated at all, but political. But that doesn't mean that all people who are against that particular political party that the terrorist was protesting are killers or should be treated that way. And it doesn't mean that people shouldn't be allowed to vote for that party.

As I said, if you judge ANY worldview on it's worst examples, who can stand?

Just answering the first part, the 'troubles' was the period when (oversimplification klaxon) things basically kicked off in Northern Ireland for about thirty years.
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16-11-2015, 11:41 AM
(16-11-2015, 04:47 AM)kin_lin Wrote:
(15-11-2015, 02:11 PM)SackedLlaMa Wrote:
(15-11-2015, 01:59 PM)kin_lin Wrote: Muslims are not to blame for IS, in fact Muslims are probably the biggest victims of IS, IS is using the Islamic religion as an excuse to pursue their own agenda and justify their brutal actions. That is certainly not how I read Ken's facebook meme. However, most of the worst acts in history have been carried out in the name of religion. So may be John Lennon was right, may be our world would be a better place if we humans put religion aside and the division it causes, instead we should learn to embrace simple spirituality, the things in common that we all share and to live in peace with each other.

I agree about IS using Islam and I think you'll struggle to find a reasonable muslim arguing that IS are true representatives of Islam. But if they are not religious, but are just using religion, then surely the religion is not to blame for hideous acts, but not being religious and just using religion as an excuse is the problem? Secondly I don't think there are any statistics on how many people have been killed in religious acts, non-religious acts and so on so I'm having trouble accepting your logic there. The world wars were politically motivated with a madman in Germany killing jews (religious people) by the million. Not to mention Pol Pot, Mao and so on. 

Thirdly, one of the human rights is for all people to have religious freedom. Why should that be removed and how do you think billions of people across the globe would react if that right was taken away? Peacefully? How can you promote peace and at the same time tell people what they are allowed to believe or not believe? Would it be a more peaceful world if you deny and prosecute anyone who wants to go to church, read religious texts or talk about religion? That doesn't make sense to me and I don't see how that promotes peace. It only promotes 1 worldview and says that anyone should believe whatever that particular worldview says. 

So can I take the argument you put forward to the logical conclusion then? That the American Gun Lobby is right "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." and therefore the American Gun Lobby is not to blame for any of the mass shootings in the US. You cannot divorce religion from those who claim that they are religious and use religion as the excuse for their evil acts because religion only exists because of people who claim that they are religious and use religion to promote their agenda. For many people who claim to be religious, religion is all about power and using that power to promote themselves. That is why I personally see spirituality to be different from religion. I have no problems or issues with spirituality in whatever form that takes along as your practice of your form of spirituality does not impact on anybody else. For me, religion is about us vs them, spirituality is about we together.

It is not a matter of banning religion or taking it away from people. It is about educating people about the difference between religious dogma and true spirituality and allowing people to make that decision to walk away from religion and embracing spirituality for themselves.

People were killing people long before guns were invented, weren't they? And yes, people will kill people whether there's religion in the world or not. You seem to forget that in the last century more people were killed than in the previous 19 and in the center of it were two atheistic ideologies; communism and nazism. Of the 1700+ recorded wars, only 6% were religiously motivated (non of the world wars were religiously motivated and they killed more people than any other war in history as far as I know). Of non-religious leaders Stalin, who leaned on Karl Marx for justification, is responsible for 42 million lives lost, Mao almost 38 million, Hitler, who leaned on Nietzsche for justification, almost 21 million and so on and so on. You really think people are going to stop killing each other if religion is removed? Political ideologies will still be around and debated and people will go to war based on difference in political ideologies, i.e. the Vietnam war. 

To watch the news, see someone who claims to be muslim justify their attacks and then blame religion is a very easy, and in my opinion wrong, answer to a very complex question. Yes, I do think people hurt other people, not religion. Sometimes they use religion as justification, but that doesn't mean it's religious. It doesn't mean that what they do is supported by that religion. 

When a so-called religious group like IS does something like they did in Paris or Beirut they are attacking religion and religious people just as much as atheists or agnostics or anyone else. They are attacking our human rights and I believe we all need to stand up for those rights and defend them, not start attacking groups of people in our own society. When When Breivik shot and killed people for belonging to the 'wrong' political party, we didn't turn against them. We stood with them. 

If we turn against religious people because we think they're a threat, I think we're playing into the hands of IS. If people become prejudice towards muslims in Paris because of the attack, the IS wins more than they should. That's their game. Turning people against each other, attacking our democracy and our human rights. It's not just about killing people but attacking our democracy and our human rights that I think we need to hold on to. 

I don't want a religious debate so I'm not going to respond to the whole spirituality vs religion. I just want people, no matter what religion, to stand together when our basic human rights, which are the same for us all, are under attack. 

Kumbahayah and all that!!  Tongue
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16-11-2015, 04:40 PM
(16-11-2015, 11:41 AM)SackedLlaMa Wrote: People were killing people long before guns were invented, weren't they? And yes, people will kill people whether there's religion in the world or not. You seem to forget that in the last century more people were killed than in the previous 19 and in the center of it were two atheistic ideologies; communism and nazism. Of the 1700+ recorded wars, only 6% were religiously motivated (non of the world wars were religiously motivated and they killed more people than any other war in history as far as I know). Of non-religious leaders Stalin, who leaned on Karl Marx for justification, is responsible for 42 million lives lost, Mao almost 38 million, Hitler, who leaned on Nietzsche for justification, almost 21 million and so on and so on. You really think people are going to stop killing each other if religion is removed? Political ideologies will still be around and debated and people will go to war based on difference in political ideologies, i.e. the Vietnam war. 

To watch the news, see someone who claims to be muslim justify their attacks and then blame religion is a very easy, and in my opinion wrong, answer to a very complex question. Yes, I do think people hurt other people, not religion. Sometimes they use religion as justification, but that doesn't mean it's religious. It doesn't mean that what they do is supported by that religion. 

When a so-called religious group like IS does something like they did in Paris or Beirut they are attacking religion and religious people just as much as atheists or agnostics or anyone else. They are attacking our human rights and I believe we all need to stand up for those rights and defend them, not start attacking groups of people in our own society. When When Breivik shot and killed people for belonging to the 'wrong' political party, we didn't turn against them. We stood with them. 

If we turn against religious people because we think they're a threat, I think we're playing into the hands of IS. If people become prejudice towards muslims in Paris because of the attack, the IS wins more than they should. That's their game. Turning people against each other, attacking our democracy and our human rights. It's not just about killing people but attacking our democracy and our human rights that I think we need to hold on to. 

I don't want a religious debate so I'm not going to respond to the whole spirituality vs religion. I just want people, no matter what religion, to stand together when our basic human rights, which are the same for us all, are under attack. 

Kumbahayah and all that!!  Tongue

6 million jews may dispute this Wink

How far back in history would you like to go Ole? I like to think we are a little more civilised each year and my very simple point is that religious views are the cause for most of the attrocities against innocent people who have nothing to do with these people.

Yes there are other reasons for innocents dying, but that's another argument.

I don't know what percentages are killed for varying reasons, but I do know that, so far, 129 people where gunned down (about 10 minutes from where I live with my 6 year old daughter and 6 month old son), by cowards. And the last words out of their mouths are chants to their gods.

Gods don't exist - fact. The proof is in the lack in any evidence whatsoever.

All religious books could have been written by Aesop - stories with morals.

Am I angry, yes, but not at you Smile
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16-11-2015, 05:37 PM
From my experience of living through the situation in Northern Ireland, religion is a flag of convenience used to justify the actions of a minority group of psychopathic murderers and gangsters. These jihadists use a similar flag. The only difference is that their targets are our way of life and our "culture", complacent and self absorbed as that culture may be.

So how do we stop them? Do we bomb them back to the stone age (although the pictures on tv would suggest they're almost there already), thereby creating more martyrs and perpetuating the circle of hatred. It didn't work over here when terrorists were killed - it only acted as a recruiting poster for more to join.

There's an argument that ISIS can only be stopped by their own Muslim communities but that doesn't work either. Over here both sides  like to fly lots of flags in case they wake up one morning and forget who & where they are. They put these flags up on every lamp post in some areas. If they put a flag up outside your house and you take it down or complain, you get your windows broken or your car gets set on fire. The problem with ISIS is they don't break windows. They chop off heads. So people don't complain and the flags stay up or the local "preacher" radicalises more young recruits. The minority starts controlling the majority of the population. The tail starts wagging the dog.

I really don't know what the solution is. I read someone saying that we should negotiate for peace. Why would ISIS want to make peace with us? They want us dead. All of us if they can manage it. 
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16-11-2015, 05:48 PM
(16-11-2015, 04:40 PM)ken66 Wrote: I don't know what percentages are killed for varying reasons, but I do know that, so far, 129 people where gunned down (about 10 minutes from where I live with my 6 year old daughter and 6 month old son), by cowards. And the last words out of their mouths are chants to their gods.

Gods don't exist - fact. The proof is in the lack in any evidence whatsoever.

All religious books could have been written by Aesop - stories with morals.

Am I angry, yes, but not at you Smile

As I said, I don't want to turn this into a religious debate. We agree that the atrocious acts in Paris were done by cowards. Let's just leave it at that. 

If 'God does not exist' is a fact, I would love to see the evidence or just an argument as I've never heard anyone, not even atheistic scientists claim that statement to be a fact. But again, we could just agree to disagree and leave it at that. I doubt we'll agree in the end anyway Smile

I'm angry too and that's why I think it's important that we stand together and direct our anger at the right people, not point fingers at each other for having different beliefs. 
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16-11-2015, 06:13 PM
(16-11-2015, 05:37 PM)juvehero Wrote: From my experience of living through the situation in Northern Ireland, religion is a flag of convenience used to justify the actions of a minority group of psychopathic murderers and gangsters. These jihadists use a similar flag. The only difference is that their targets are our way of life and our "culture", complacent and self absorbed as that culture may be.

So how do we stop them? Do we bomb them back to the stone age (although the pictures on tv would suggest they're almost there already), thereby creating more martyrs and perpetuating the circle of hatred. It didn't work over here when terrorists were killed - it only acted as a recruiting poster for more to join.

There's an argument that ISIS can only be stopped by their own Muslim communities but that doesn't work either. Over here both sides  like to fly lots of flags in case they wake up one morning and forget who & where they are. They put these flags up on every lamp post in some areas. If they put a flag up outside your house and you take it down or complain, you get your windows broken or your car gets set on fire. The problem with ISIS is they don't break windows. They chop off heads. So people don't complain and the flags stay up or the local "preacher" radicalises more young recruits. The minority starts controlling the majority of the population. The tail starts wagging the dog.

I really don't know what the solution is. I read someone saying that we should negotiate for peace. Why would ISIS want to make peace with us? They want us dead. All of us if they can manage it. 

Interestingly, this discussion is going on on another forum I post on. Pretty much the same conclusion's been reached there too. All for talking to ISIS, but there's zero chance of them wanting to speak back.
(15-02-2018, 10:50 PM)Rodderas Wrote: Maybe this upset the team? Fucked if I know.



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16-11-2015, 07:34 PM (This post was last modified: 16-11-2015, 07:37 PM by ken66.)
(16-11-2015, 05:48 PM)SackedLlaMa Wrote:
(16-11-2015, 04:40 PM)ken66 Wrote: I don't know what percentages are killed for varying reasons, but I do know that, so far, 129 people where gunned down (about 10 minutes from where I live with my 6 year old daughter and 6 month old son), by cowards. And the last words out of their mouths are chants to their gods.

Gods don't exist - fact. The proof is in the lack in any evidence whatsoever.

All religious books could have been written by Aesop - stories with morals.

Am I angry, yes, but not at you Smile

As I said, I don't want to turn this into a religious debate. We agree that the atrocious acts in Paris were done by cowards. Let's just leave it at that. 

If 'God does not exist' is a fact, I would love to see the evidence or just an argument as I've never heard anyone, not even atheistic scientists claim that statement to be a fact. But again, we could just agree to disagree and leave it at that. I doubt we'll agree in the end anyway Smile

I'm angry too and that's why I think it's important that we stand together and direct our anger at the right people, not point fingers at each other for having different beliefs. 

Surely it is someone's responsibility to prove there god exists? Not the other way around?

Does that mean you believe in fairies too Ole? Wink
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16-11-2015, 08:12 PM
...you mean they're not real? Sad
(15-02-2018, 10:50 PM)Rodderas Wrote: Maybe this upset the team? Fucked if I know.



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16-11-2015, 08:19 PM
Prove it!
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16-11-2015, 08:21 PM
There's a load of bloody fairies down south... Wink
(15-02-2018, 10:50 PM)Rodderas Wrote: Maybe this upset the team? Fucked if I know.



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16-11-2015, 08:24 PM
Good point Mrgreen
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16-11-2015, 08:50 PM (This post was last modified: 16-11-2015, 09:00 PM by SackedLlaMa.)
People have always believed in gods so surely the burden of proof must be on the new boys trying to convince the world that gods aren't real after all? Wink

No, I don't believe in fairies. But I do believe we've hijacked the news thread for a long enough time now (as I've hinted to several times already) so maybe agree to disagree and move on? Smile

Edit: I.e. to this Irish dad in Vegas filming an epic holiday video to show his family Mrgreen
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16-11-2015, 11:50 PM
Happy to return to our regular program.

Why I (putting my moderator hat on) have let this discussion run and been involved in it is because it is one of the most basic of human rights that we have the privilege of enjoying. The freedom to have differing points of view and the freedom to engage in a discussion or even a debate about these differences in view and be able to respect each others differences as well as the similarities that we share.

This freedom is what many people have sacrificed life and limb to defend.

"It is the soldier, not the reporter, Who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet, Who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the organizer, Who gave us the freedom to demonstrate
It is the soldier, Who salutes the flag, Who serves beneath the flag.
And whose coffin is draped by the flag, Who allows the protester to burn the flag."


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17-11-2015, 01:10 AM
(16-11-2015, 11:50 PM)kin_lin Wrote: Happy to return to our regular program.

Why I (putting my moderator hat on) have let this discussion run and been involved in it is because it is one of the most basic of human rights that we have the privilege of enjoying. The freedom to have differing points of view and the freedom to engage in a discussion or even a debate about these differences in view and be able to respect each others differences as well as the similarities that we share.

This freedom is what many people have sacrificed life and limb to defend.

"It is the soldier, not the reporter, Who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet, Who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the organizer, Who gave us the freedom to demonstrate
It is the soldier, Who salutes the flag, Who serves beneath the flag.
And whose coffin is draped by the flag, Who allows the protester to burn the flag."


- Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC

Well said Thup
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17-11-2015, 08:48 AM
Hear hear!
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18-11-2015, 11:01 AM
Appears they've cornered some of those involved in the Paris incident. I hope they don't allow them to go out in a blaze of glory and become martyrs. Better to capture them, try them and make them live their lives in some humiliating fashion - wearing clown style prison suits to clean out the toilets of the other inmates while being forced to sing Miley Cyrus songs all day long. And then broadcast the videos on Al Jazeera (or whatever that Arab TV channel is).
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18-11-2015, 11:24 AM
Or just dress them in a Leeds kit and sew it to their bodies...
(15-02-2018, 10:50 PM)Rodderas Wrote: Maybe this upset the team? Fucked if I know.



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18-11-2015, 11:25 AM
(18-11-2015, 11:01 AM)JP Wrote: Appears they've cornered some of those involved in the Paris incident. I hope they don't allow them to go out in a blaze of glory and become martyrs. Better to capture them, try them and make them live their lives in some humiliating fashion - wearing clown style prison suits to clean out the toilets of the other inmates while being forced to sing Miley Cyrus songs all day long. And then broadcast the videos on Al Jazeera (or whatever that Arab TV channel is).

Or they can just let their police women shoot them since they believe that if killed by a woman, they'll go straight to hell. Then again, your proposal for punishment sounds like just that Smile 
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